more T-19 installation problems

[mudturk37]

Originally Posted by tdc

Enough to break the crank bolt off.
Pull the plugs or use the starter motor.

6 plugs out and its all i can do to turn it over with a 1/2" ratchet

i'm guessing compression was not the problem

everything is completely bolted up and the tranny is resting on the cross member

i didn't have to force any of the bell housing bolts in.....they all cranked in pretty smoothly

what am i missing?

surely if the pilot bearing was mis aligned i wouldn't have been able to get it in all the way?

[Tim Potter]

Originally Posted by tdc

Enough to break the crank bolt off

This is wrong. The motor should turn fairly easily with the plugs in however in this case you shouldnt be trying to turn then engine even by hand. With the trans in neutral can you turn the output yoke? I beleive you've jammed something if you cant turn either

[Thomas]

---I tried once to install the bellhousing first and after all that, couldn't get to the top two trans-to-bellhousing bolts, so ended up lowering the trans, bolting it all together and installing it normally. Don't know how you guys are doing it, but I saw no room whatsoever for a ratchet or wrench, let alone a forearm, however, I have the 12" clutch so if most of you are discussing simplicity with the standard 10", I'll stay clear, but still can't see it as easier. So if you try it, caution that edges can be sharp.. and gear oil leaks out of the bottom bolt holes if the studs aren't tight & threads sealed. Bolting trans to engine outside and then installing, always easier if three's room... and we have enough room for a 413 crossram or 440 AFAIC.

---Simple things that can happen:

-The splines are not aligned & while I think it would be 100% foolish to bump the engine with starter when there's evidence of binding, rotating the transmission to align splines will be just as hard it you have everything forced together. Its not pressed in place, so it doesn't get pressed in place. Its heavy as !@#$ for damn sure ("mumble mumble get my gun maw" ... "now watch your mouth paw") and dangerous as double !@#$ to have hanging over your head and a trans Jack costs maybe $30 a day to rent from a local rental store (where you get your ditch witch or bobcat if you don't have one). This mobile screen bounces and scrolls like mad, so I can't explain how I did it twice on grass, but regardless, to be safe, when being unsafe without a trans jack, you need a helper, one man* on each side, but for now since I can't see your setup, nor your physical build, you can start at the final steps and put a spline groove on the disc so it matches the input shaft splines, by rotating the trans. Push the trans slowly up the center of the clutch levers (you simply cannot install the Rockford clutch disc backward if they're matching size parts [E.G., all 10", all 11" or all 12"] cause they don't fit backward and it's obvious they don't when the disc is set in the plate, when assembling plate & disc). You then slide the transmission forward until it contacts the plate, mesh the splines by rotating the trans, gently wiggle trans till shaft seats in pilot bearing and move trans forward slowly and align dowel pins on the bolt holes. Push forward & insert top bellhousing bolts with clutch return spring bracket on driver side (LHD) bolt.

-Maybe clutch fork is on backward or throwout bearing sleeve/collar slipped off fork and fork is behind sleeve instead of in recesses.

-The retaining blocks were not removed when clutch kit was installed. They hold the levers back so the disc can be aligned, then you remove the three spacers. If you don't have three, locate them all.

---Crossmember gets in the way of installing for me and all quality manuals say to install it close to last, so I would say you need to remove that before starting again, from experience and technical POV. Understood it is holding trans up so you could go to bed, but don't try working around it later, get it out of the way. Don't get me wrong, I do my share of dangerous things and even with reflexes often faster than a 3-day old fly, I don't condone being unsafe, but I get the trans up and use dummy streingth to put it in place, then have the helper slide the Jack back under when I can't hold the near 400# anymore. Stupid yes, and Alabama Tomfucius say ~Gump voice~ "Stupid does as stupid is", so remember stupid is as stupid does and be safe! Book safe is better than book smart.

-You're not wearing your safety glasses and can't see the wheels aren't scotched or trans is in neutral so you can align splines by turning output shaft. Keep trans in neutral unless aligning splines.

-Trans is not even/square with the block. If at different angles, it will be installing incorrectly. All needs to be inline, which is easier out than in the truck, but requires removing radiator, grille and such, so time consuming... but more than struggling? Maybe a tie?

---Again, this is like usual every day thought process of "the door didn't have a problem closing before, so if it doesn't close, don't slam it... something is not right or in the way". Wire loom has a problem with falling down cause it normally drapes over the bellhousing if not mounted in OEM fender clamps.

---There wasn't work done to the connecting rods on this was there? If engine is not turning by hand with everything in running condition (Stonethrower so far has had the highest compression readings I have seen here or there, with a whopping 185psi on all cylinders) and no matter what, it'll turn over with an 18", 1/2" drive breaker bar and allspark plugs installed, but no, it's not wise to do it with plugs installed & don't be tempted to rotate the engine counter-clockwise no matter what's said here or there.. If you assembled even two bearing caps on the wrong rods, it'll bind up... and the effected bearings are trashed & need to be replaced, without question. If engine spins with trans out and a breaker bar, the problem is in the trans. If trans spins, the problem is in the installation. Take your time and be aware. Don't just slam it around and use everything including a pickaxe head to pry. It will just fall into place easily once you understand it's heavy, heavy duty, virtually indestructible, but beat on it is not the answer.

[Jay Tabor]

the IH engines crankshaft can be turned either direction wont hurt a thing.
crankshaft dont care,.
oh- what?? pistons going the wrong way?
valve opening or closing?
cam shaft turning the other direction? oh wait ! it allready does!
guess what happens everytime the engine runs backwards from ingesting gas with high idle speed when turning off the ignition system? NOTHING. and that occurence casues REAL FAST and longer duration of crankshaft revolving, than any hand turning of the engine does . ..

palmer engines and many aircraft and boat engines run opposite rotation . .

[Tim Potter]

Originally Posted by Thomas

---I tried once to install the bellhousing first and after all that, couldn't get to the top two trans-to-bellhousing bolts, so ended up lowering the trans, bolting it all together and installing it normally. Don't know how you guys are doing it, but I saw no room whatsoever for a ratchet or wrench, let alone a forearm, however, I have the 12" clutch so if most of you are discussing simplicity with the standard 10", I'll stay clear, but still can't see it as easier. So if you try it, caution that edges can be sharp.. and gear oil leaks out of the bottom bolt holes if the studs aren't tight & threads sealed. Bolting trans to engine outside and then installing, always easier if three's room... and we have enough room for a 413 crossram or 440 AFAIC.

Other than installing the trans to the engine and installing the whole shebang as a unit, bolting the bell housing to the block then installing the trans is by far the easiest way to do it, especially if you're flat backing in the driveway. Installing the BH is easier without the weight of the trans fighting you and it's much easier to see if there's any obstruction in the way. About the only thing you have to keep in mind is to swing the TO collar on the fork before the input shaft goes thru or you'll be backing up, of course that's true regardless.

It's so much easier to maneuver the trans without the extra weight of the bell housing and the transfer case attached. Most know that you've got to rotate the bull gear to align the splines with the clutch disk then you've got to wiggle the trans and get it going perfectly straight so the input shaft will penetrate the pilot bearing, sometimes it's necessary to drop the back of the engine or raise the front of the trans. By this time, it's easier to see/feel the gap between the trans and BH than it is to see/feel the gap between the BH and the block and, no long alignment studs are needed to guide the thing, once the trans studs are in the BH holes, it's almost home. It's just a matter of getting the input shaft aligned: for the most part easily done with a slightly modified floor jack and a little uuummmph.

There's plenty of room to get your hand up in the BH to install the 4 nuts and washers once the trans is in place and there's enough room to swing a torque wrench in there too.
The BH and the transfer case being part of the equation just makes this a lot harder than it needs to be. The transfer case thows the whole thing way out of balance, making it a lot harder to handle, even for 6 hands. From my point of view, the two help to create most of those possible problems you listed.

[tdc]

Originally Posted by tdc >
Enough to break the crank bolt off.
Pull the plugs or use the starter motor.

I can see how this could be misconstrued in relation to the OP.
This is not a good time to try and turn the engine with the starter motor.

The question was,

Originally Posted by mudturk37 >
just for reference, does anyone have any idea how much torque it should take to turn the crank with the plugs in?

My comment was meant to serve as a warning, not to try too hard at turning the engine by the crank bolt during this juncture.
When everything is good, the engine can be turned via the crank bolt until it boils over, with no ill effects.

Originally Posted by Tim Potter

This is wrong. The motor should turn fairly easily with the plugs in

Using a typical 1/2" ratchet on the crank bolt, vs. a sv with good compression? Not so easy.

I figured if he pulled the plugs and it spun easily with his typical 1/2" ratchet, he was home free.
With some or all of the plugs in, it would be hard to tell if it was binding or just has good internals.

[mudturk37]

well screwed with it off and on all day today to no avail

i eventually pulled it back out and its sitting for a long day tomorrow

upon inspection of the pilot bearing and the universal alignment tool i used, the particular nose that i selected was stepped with 2 diameters....the larger diameter was correct but was only engaging the pilot bearing maybe 1/8-1/4 inch

i found another nose that fits much tighter in the pilot bearing with a few taps of the handle of a mallet......this should give me a much tighter tolerance when i install the clutch and pressure plate

also took the bell housing off and we'll try that method......after inspection and removal, it really wasn't that difficult to get those 4 nuts off......the top two could be a little trickier but with the right selection of extensions, ect... i'll be able to get them back on with no problem

anyone know what the torque specs on those should be before i pull out my service manual? 45-55 ft lb sound about right?

[Tim Potter]

With the trans backed away does your engine turn over by hand? Using a 1/2" breaker it should spin pretty easy. Even with a shorter ratchet it should spin with little trouble.
Before you put this thing back together again I'd be interested to know the spring color combination they used in your pressure plate. We've had the bad experience of installing a clutch using the wrong color springs only to find out there wasn't enough pressure to hold the clutch from slipping under load. So, its all gotta come apart again. Go the other way and the pedal will be too heavy. Half green/half yellow has been the key to success. Nice pedal pressure and no slippage
I posted the torque specs for you previously

[Thomas]

-Jay,

---I know I can't be the only here one who works as I was tought, it's just not that uncommon, and since my HS automotive class was 5th in the nation (many sponsorships given by wyotech even) at the time, I cannot say they were wrong to teach us to grab the manual, safety glasses and fender covers and put them where they belong. Even while working on something you know as well as taking a dump in the dark, the manual should be open to the appropriate page and glanced at, even if taking a sip of . Reason I am referencing this at this time, is becauae that was the case when I first/last saw the entry. Now, next time I am following the 101 rules I was tought, and again see the the said, I will fold the page so I can share the good word with facts to back my considerations. It's in there & last time I saw it I merely smiled & went on with what I was doing right... FWIW, I have also smiled when I was doing what I thought I knew, just not the case with IH, and found the books saying not to do something, just before I did. Wish that was the case when I packed my lock-o-matics "... with light grease" back when all I had to count on was a Chitlon's manual, and the IHFSM said "Lightly pack with grease, no more than 2Tsp per hub". Cost to me was a set of like new hubs and wheel bearings; That was and is still painful. Doesn't hurt me at all to relay facts to others, so I will continue with warnings where I believe their needed & again appologize that posts are so creaking long cause I want to be as thorough as possible. However, it does hurt me to see "misinformation" so we've been accused of on the "other site" being pushed (FWIW, I have seen this same misinformation contradicted during dictation over "there" but God forbid you call someone on it there. Might get run over & banned for talking in class and linking (transformers reference) them. I love you man, so I'll keep an eye out for the entry in our books. I may even call your shop when I do as it's important. All depends on how busy I am and which I have time to do, call, post or fold a page. Straight forward, those who wrote the books undoubtedly had more knowledge than you and I (as well as all those internet braggers who passed open-book tests these days) combined. That is worth listening to as much as a Grandfather's stories... and I appreciate each for sharing. My word to you that I'll get back with you on a page to reference.

---As for engines that run C-Clockwise, I'm sure the people who designed our engines also have it noted in the related FSMs, not to rotate them "backward", if it's in ours. Just to sum it up, it's stated that the journals can* score the bearings. For analogy sake, if you sharpen your own knives, swords, drill bits and/or chisels, then folding the edge over is not unknown to you & you can get an idea of why it's said not to do so. Its not normal rotation and can cause damage. Even if its scoring that a 6mo old can't feel with their still sensisitive fingernail, the oil & bearings will notice it. Even if what metal causes the damage exits stage left quickly, only causing a scratch that 1,200 grit wetsand would, it's still not the what, 15,000+ grit the crankshaft is polished with.

-Tim,

---If more than one is saying it can be done on a Scout II (without 12" clutch) , so be it and I'll trust I. Was just saying that when I thought it would be easier, I inventually eded up putting it in as a unit. Hey, some say it's easier to install trans then the transfer case, but I, with my wrestlers' hands and popeye-like forearms to find it more of a complete PITA. Thanks for the description & I'll definitely look at it again the next time i find myself in there, but remember, I was refering to a combination of my forearms, hands, a Scout II and a 12" clutch. Universal socket, combination of extensions... how would that effect the torque wrench's accuracy?

-mudturk77,

---A lot of good info flowing from everyone. Just don't forget safety & to breathe in through nose using chest and out through mouth using stomach... LOL. Hope you get it soon, but don't skip making sure engine and trans both rotate freely when separated and don't get frustrated to where you forget safety's.

[Jay Tabor]

thomas -spare me the diatribe. you always state- 'its written in the manual'
WELL PROVE IT THEN.
nowhere is it stated -'do not turn the crankshaft backwards '
in the manual..
many -many times- there is the phrase ''turn engine' or 'turn crankshaft', never does it state -'ONLY IN CLOCKWISE DIRECTION''
if it was so important there would be plenty of cautionary notes stating that point . .

so post the IH manual- section-page -paragraph -and sentence number,stating your old wives tale>

put up or shut up.
maybe i better not run tires and wheels on the left side of the vehicle then?
cause they turn backwards- ccw? whereas the right side - they turn clockwise?
wont that make the car turn in circles?
or is that only when going backwards? which way is back? which way is front?>